Marilyn Stowe Blog

JamesB on January 16, 2013 at 9:08 pm

Can I ask who the mother is please? Perhaps one for the scientists? Can a baby be made (biologically speaking) with just 2 sperm (or 2 eggs)? The story confuses me. Or do Elton and his partner mix their sperm and insert it into the woman and not know who’s sperm? Very confusing. Who are the biological parents please? I think it really matters.

BDB on January 18, 2013 at 10:48 pm

JamesB
It is rather like ordering a new car.
One of the men – presumably David as his sperm will not have deteriorated as much as Elton’s due to age – donates his sperm. They select an egg donor (specification), considering intelligence, colouring, looks, body size, medical history etc… and they select a gestational mother. They pay tens of thousands of dollars to the surrogacy agency and then go home for 9 months. An embryo is then produced in a lab and then implanted into the gestational mother who carries the child for 9 months, upon birth Elton and David would then take the journey back to collect their ‘paid for’ delivery.
Only one of the men can be a biological parent of the child, but both can (and have) become legal parents of the child, they legally extinquish the legal link with the mother leaving the child with no mother.
Of course if this was a normal heterosexual couple of 50 years and 65 years or non celebrity homosexual couple, people would be up in arms about it! But this is Elton John, somehow it seems to cloud peoples judgement.

Confusing, unethical and disgusting? Many people think so, but this is a multi billion dollar international business evolving and growing at a very fast rate, exploiting the poor and making the creation of babies into a commercial enterprise.

JamesB on January 19, 2013 at 11:58 am

thanks bdb.

DT on January 20, 2013 at 4:41 pm

BDB

I’ve been thinking a lot about your comments since they were posted.

Do you really think a child needs two parents of the opposite sex? Couldn’t a child have its needs met with two parents of the same sex? Or even one parent? Surely it’s about being able to care for the child and meeting it needs rather than assuming two people of the opposite sex are automatically best placed.

If Elton and David want children, and they’re perfectly entitled to do so, they’re a little bit limited in-terms of their options. They have to bring in a third party who presumably was happy with the arrangement.

You talk about “normal heterosexual couple” – what’s that?! One of those many couples who’s not fit to have children?

Elton John has made life for gay people a hell of a lot easier. Yes, he’s made mistakes in the past, but haven’t we all?! Having such a high profile person flouting out-of-date so-called norms has helped deal with a lot of nasty antiquated prejudices.

I believe that he and David can and will meet the needs of their children and therefore this is all that matters.

DT

DT on January 20, 2013 at 4:50 pm

James

Why do you or I need to know who the biological parents are?

OK – so if you knew who the biological parents were, what difference would this make? What would you do with the information? This is nothing to do with you or me.

There are lots of kids out there who have been adopted and may not know or ever get to know their biological parents. Do you need to know their ancestry too?

What matters is the care, love and support they are given on a day-to-day basis. It matters that their needs are being met. I believe that these kids are two very lucky little chaps; not because they have wealth, but because they have two devoted and loving parents.

DT

JamesB on January 20, 2013 at 8:00 pm

My mother was adopted and it screwed up her life not knowing who her biological parents were, that’s why!

BDB on January 21, 2013 at 3:47 pm

DT
Like the mother of JamesB, i never knew my birth mother.

I grew up with lovely guardian parents and maintained a wonderful relationship with my biological father who wasn’t able to look after me himself as a single man. They are all lovely people who cared for me well and i consider i have been very fortunate indeed and enjoyed being part of a loving family. However, when a child is abandoned, given away, given up or sold by their birth mother it is a profound wound, the ultimate betrayal. It is an everlasting hidden pain that does not diminish with time.

So this is nothing to do with sexuality, it is everything to do with birth mothers giving away/selling their babies which they have carried for 9 months for money (many surrogates use their own eggs so they are the biological and gestational mother too). It must be remembered that the woman has shared her body with the child for 9 months and nature naturally creates an unbreakable bond between mother and child. The child has to live their entire life in the knowledge that their mother made a choice to break that bond or she only had them for money. Trust me when i say this is not nice to live with.

What concerns me is that some people think it’s good for babies to be paid for and given away by their birth mothers for money to enrich the lives of wealthy wannabe parents. Not a thought for the children being brought into the world with the full intention of them having to live with ths knowledge.

I hope this explains a little more and that you can understand my strong feelings about this subject. It honestly is nothing at all to do with sexuality.

JamesB on January 21, 2013 at 5:03 pm

Very moving BDB. I think I understand, to a degree anyway, as I am as close to my Mum as it is possible to be given her upbringing and know a little on how affected by her upbringing with regards to this matter she has been.

I did find your comment on ‘womb-bonding’ enlightening also. My mum has told me she was one of two twins and the other died in child-birth. I think that affected her deeply two, seeming to miss the other sibbling. I understand that Elvis Presley had a similar experience of losing his twin on birth and it may have contributed to some of his temperament. So, yes, giving up a baby I do think is an issue and I do think all biological parents should be kept involved whenever and wherever possible, including with the example of this post about Elton John also.

JamesB on January 21, 2013 at 5:15 pm

Yes, I would prefer to know the history / family tree on my Mother’s side. I have it on my father’s side back to the 1800s, on my mother’s side nothing. Sometimes I fantasize that I have Irish or Caribean blood or something. Also, my children have all three ended-up blond, and there are no blonds in My dad or my partners’ parents going way back. So, no idea where that came from. Would be more than nice to know. Also my skin is a little darker than most, perhaps the darker of cliff richard and tom jones’ no idea where that comes from. I think you are asking if people really care about nature (not just nurture) and in answer, honestly, I really think they do.

I don’t have the percentage split to that age old question of nature v nurture, but I don’t think you can or should disregard nature. Just ask those who bough houses on flood planes for one of many examples. I don’t mean to sound patronising, just an interesting subject I feel strongly on. I don’t have an issue with them adopting, I just think the child has a right to keep in touch with biological parents as much as possible, thus am for the change in the law re IVF and adoption that happened a year or two ago also. Cheers.

JamesB on January 21, 2013 at 5:54 pm

I am like BDB in that I do not know the genetic history from my mother’s side, although I do from my father’s side.

DT on January 21, 2013 at 7:48 pm

Good evening James & BDB

BDB thank you for sharing your story; it is indeed a moving one.

To you both:- How do you know that these children will not see / will not have a relationship with their mother? Do you have any evidence to prove that they will not be seeing their biological mother, now or in the future? I am not privy as to whether arrangements for such have or indeed have not been put in place. Do you have evidence either way?

Let’s assume you’re right and they don’t see / know their biological mother now or in the future. There are some people (as you have detailed) who find this problematic, but there are a lot of kids/adults who don’t share these feelings. I’m not saying either is right or wrong, but different people respond to the news differently.

James, you say in your initial posting:

“Who are the biological parents please? I think it really matters.” Well, I think that this has got nothing to do with us. I don’t think that this is information we need to or should know. I don’t know your biological parents and you don’t know mine. Why should we ask who the biological parent(s) of these children are? It’s got noting to do with us.

DT

BDB on January 21, 2013 at 8:34 pm

DT
Surrogate children do not usually have a mother/child relationship with their birth mother and note that the birth mother is no longer the legal mother and in this instance the she lives in California. The birth mother is not the child’s parent – understand.
It is ridiculous to ask for evidence.
It is also ridiculous to state that Elton and David ‘ are perfectly entitled’ to have children. Children are a gift not an entitlement – nobody is entitled to have children or pay for children.

To say ‘some people find this problematic’ (not having their mother!) is very patronising and not appreciated. How can you say lots of kids/adults don’t share these feelings, how do you know that? Do YOU have evidence? No i didn’t think so. May i suggest you read The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier and then perhaps your opinion may change. How would you feel if your mother had given you away or sold you? perhaps not so good, i guess your mother kept you and loved you, you have no idea. So don’t be so patronising.

For the record, i think many gay couples will make excellent, caring and sensitive parents and it was a good move to open up adoption as an opportunity for gay couples and for children who do not have parents capable of caring for them, i hope society embrace’s this.
Surrogacy is entirely different, it is commercial, it is business, it’s about making money out of making babies and it’s about bringing children into the world with the intention of parting them from their birth mother. It cannot be right.

DT on January 22, 2013 at 11:10 pm

BDB

Elton and David ARE perfectly entitled to want to have children – who are we to determine their wants?

It is not ridiculous to ask for evidence – you need it to prove your point! I still maintain that we do not have any evidence as to whether arrangements have or have not been put in place RE: the biological mother (now or in the future), and I don’t think we should suppose anything. I don’t know all of the facts – do you?

Children are indeed a gift but we as human beings also all have the right to have children too if we so wish.

I am sorry that you find my comments patronising; there was no intent.

Lots of people are not in contact with their biological parents either because they have been adopted or otherwise. No, I cannot speak on behalf of every single one of them but I do know that a lot of peoples’ lives have been made better because of this. Not all, no, but some kids have been given a much better life by the likes of adoptive parents than they ever could have had with their biological parents. Again, it comes back to meeting needs and if adoptive parents/surrogates can meet the needs of a child (especially if the natural parents could not), then it must be acknowledged that sometimes not having a biological parent in a child’s life is for the best.

Surrogacy is about money for some but not all and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it as a principle. The intent of surrogacy is not, as you say, “about bringing children into the world with the intention of parting them from their birth mother”, it’s about bring a child into the world for those who are not capable of the gift of children without a bit of help.

DT

JamesB on January 22, 2013 at 11:55 pm

This argument reminds me of the life of Brian. You can’t have children – you haven’t got a womb.

JamesB on January 22, 2013 at 11:56 pm

I think as long as the child is fully aware of what’s going on then should be ok in this instance and Mum stays involved.

DT on January 23, 2013 at 9:52 am

Mum might be involved

BDB on January 23, 2013 at 7:28 pm

You appear to be getting very confused DT.
If you read my initial comments i merely pointed out the procedure of what happens in a surrogacy arrangement in answer to the enquiry from JamesB.
I stated that the David and Elton become the legal parents of the child and they legally extinguish the legal link with the mother, therefore the child legally does not have a mother. None of my comments state that the child will never meet the mother, so i can’t understand why you are asking for evidence to prove something that has never been stated or even implied, this is in your imagination. I don’t quite understand what point you say needs proving. I certainly haven’t supposed anything, the child legally does not have a mother, that is a fact.

Your comments regarding adoption are again confusing, nobody has said that the lives of adopted children have not been made better by adoption, so i don’t quite get your point. In the majority of cases i feel sure adoption or removal of a child from the birth parents will have been for the best and improved the life chances for the child, but that does not mean the child will not have suffered significantly at the loss of their birth parents. They can be extremely happy with their adoptive family and live successful lives but still suffer a kind of lifelong bereavement at the loss of their birth parents and other significant family members such as brothers and sisters (or their twin). JamesB may have a slight understanding of this.

The topic is surrogacy, not adoption, as have said, they are entirely different, so i really don’t understand why you have gone off the track in another direction.

I have attempted to be enlightening to help you to understand and to encourage some consideration regarding potential impact on surrogate children, unfortunately some people place the needs of adults as a priority which i suppose they are perfectly entitled to do.

it s a fact that International commercial surrogacy is an extremely lucrative and highly profitable business, making multi billions out of babies and turning babies into commodities, due to the unethical nature of the business commercial surrogacy is illegal in many countries and in many States in the US.

To close, we shall have to agree to differ in our support of the topic. We clearly have different opinions and different morals which again we are entitled to.

I am now finished on this topic/forum so just as a final little thought ……. I would just like to say, i saw the most beautiful yacht moored in Monte Carlo in the summer, i really desperately wanted that yacht, of course I am perfectly entitled to want it, but i can’t have it.
Some people however have so much money that they can actually buy everything in the world that they desire, be that a beautiful yacht or a even a baby. Lucky for them!

BDB on January 23, 2013 at 9:27 pm

P.S….. DT

I think this may give you the evidence/answer you are looking for………

‘But the flamboyant star, now enjoying life as a parent, has admitted it will be ‘heartbreaking’ for Zachary to grow up without a mother.

In an interview, Sir Elton confessed: ‘It’s going to be heartbreaking for him to grow up and realise he hasn’t got a mummy. ‘

DT on January 23, 2013 at 11:25 pm

BDB

I haven’t seen anything (before now) to suggest that this child was or was not going to grow up without a mum “around”, you’ve just clarified that. That was what I felt needed highlighting. She might be out of the picture on paper but what about in real life was what I wanted to know?! I understand the legal implications of there being no mother.

I’m sorry if I have tangled two different matters; you’re right it is of course about surrogacy, but as points and parallels were raised about adoption earlier, I tried to address these, clearly not that well!

BDB on January 24, 2013 at 4:21 pm

DT
I fully appreciate your comments here, thank you and I do appreciate your views on the issue.

I hope you have found my comments enlightening, and that this debate has provided you with an alternative perspective on commercial surrogacy. I am sure you may still be supportive of the issue but at least your support will be with your eyes open looking at it from different angles rather than just considering the desires and difficulties of commissioning parents.

I also hope this has enlightened you to the fact that when people object then it’s not necessarily anything at all to do with sexuality, their objection may relate to ethics and concerns regards the potential impact on children – even Elton John has confessed to concerns about that.

This is the first forum i have ever commented on, i wouldn’t usually waste my time doing this sort of thing but Marilyn writes a very interesting and sometimes very controversial blog which is very informative and thought provoking.

So keep up the good work Marilyn!

DT and JamesB, thanks for the ‘chat’!

JamesB on January 25, 2013 at 3:37 pm

Good post BDB, cheers.

JamesB on January 25, 2013 at 3:38 pm

And cheers DT for not going down a hole of abuse and being constructive where others wouldn’t have been. I.e. contributing well to a sensible debate. They should have us three on Question time, better discussion then most on there .

DT on January 27, 2013 at 5:29 pm

Good afternoon BDB and James B

First and foremost, thank you both for your generous comments; they’re much appreciated.

I think that it’s vital to be able hear and understand the views of others; whether we agree with one another or not is quite often secondary.

Indeed I like to hear the views of others especially if they differ from my own because difference and diversity is what makes the world a better place to my mind. What’s more, I’m not afraid to have my mind changed on a matter or admitting that I’ve got something wrong.

Please do contribute again – it would be good to chat.

Kindest regards and best wishes.

DT

Xx

naomi on February 26, 2013 at 11:39 pm

good afternoon jamesB, i wonder how long it will take you to climb down off that extremley high horse you have aquired and respond to this post. just because yor mother was adopted doesnt mean that every adoption is the same or that just because you cant trace yor family tree properly then elton john should not be allowed to adopt a child if he so wishes as long as everybody is in agreement that the child is well looked after then who are we to judge a sitation we know nothing about. the mother may be involved or she may not and if she is not then how do we know the situation surrounding this persons conception if it wasnt her egg used then technically she is not the babys biological mother. if you thought about all the diffeent angles instead of just assuming certain things then maybe you would have a better understanding that not every situation is the same.

JamesB on February 27, 2013 at 7:29 pm

Hence my first post. I do think the biological mother should be involved yes, so I am not completely repeating myself here I do like horse riding.

JamesB on February 28, 2013 at 5:28 pm

P.s. Good afternoon naomi.

naomi on February 28, 2013 at 9:27 pm

well jamesb i was adopted and consider it to have been a good thing but maybe thats why at 25 years old i have decided to not have children at pesent and concentrate on my career i have no partner and do not tend to attach myself to people for too long, some people would say this is a bad thing or say its about abandonment issues, i myself say its taught me to be independant, i just dont see why a person would need a specific gender role model or one of each gender role models to turn out ok.
sometimes its good to repeat yourself so others may understand you better.

If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time – a tremendous whack.
Winston Churchill

DT on March 1, 2013 at 10:23 am

Excellent points Naomi.

naomi on March 1, 2013 at 9:05 pm

thank you DT it just annoys me when people think they have an opinion and then fail to back it up.. x