Marilyn Stowe Blog

Little Mr Mike on March 30, 2010 at 9:30 am

In your blog of 17 February you stated that spousal maintenance is regarded in other jurisdictions as short term and rehabilitative. You state – in my opinion rightly – that this can cause serious hardship.

In England and Wales the likelihood that that a maintenance order will be expressed to be payable for joint lives, unless the marriage is short or the parties are more or less economically equal.

To be sure, it does not necessarily follow that, because a maintenance order is expressed to be for life, that the payer will actually have to pay for life.

But is there no room for some half way house between these two extremes – one the one hand, maintenance for a very short duration, and on the
other, maintenance for a period which might be twice or three times as long as the marriage ?

In my case I have been paying maintenance to an ex wife for 27 years for a marriage lasting 13 and I can tell you the last three were sheer hell. I cannot and do not blame my ex for this, because the conduct was the result of mental illness.

To protect the anonymity of my ex I have used my wikivorce username. Real name can be supplied if required.

Little Mr Mike

John on July 16, 2010 at 9:51 am

It may cause hardship to the ex-wife, but that is what social security is for. There is a definite expectation that after marriage both parties should work. Maintenance is such the State abrogating its duty to provide social security.

There is obvious inequity in the cohabitation vs marriage scenario. I have two friends, both with children. The one has been cohabiting for 20 years no marriage. Jointly owned house. The other cobhabiting for 20 years, married after 9 years. In the forme

Enough Already on January 25, 2011 at 4:12 pm

Hi,

I found this post via the usual questions into Google route and am looking for some help and advice.

I am a co-habiting partner of a divorced man who helped him through his acrimonious +6 yr divorce.

We are trying to come to terms with the court order from 2 years ago ordering him to pay global maintenance of around +50% of his net salary for kids of 13, 17 and 20 (at uni) and the ex wife.

The problem is that his ex wife like many others has used her circumstances to her advantage by working minimal hours in a very low paid job (and makes excuses not to work full time). She declined a timeline in the proceedings by which to re-train which was her expressed wish and so remains in an unskilled, low paid position with no real prospects – she is mid 40′s.

She has a partner of 7.5 yrs (non co-habiting) who is a very wealthy tax exile (he paid for her costly fees). She stated in court that she does not have any plans to marry or co-habit. Neither does she feel ‘sure enough’ about her partner after all that time to give up maintenance for an additional 2 years even if she DOES co-habit with him – so 2 yrs additional maintenance was awarded in the Court Order. Unfairly we feel.

Anyhow, the whole situation relies upon my partner and myself scrimping and saving to break even while she is generously rewarded each month with maintenance, wages, tax credits, child benefit etc. which nets her over £30K per annum.

I am aware there is an ‘earnings gap’ here but if someone makes no EFFORT to improve their circumstances why should they be rewarded with a tax free (annually rising) income for life whilst their RPI increase per annum outstrips any benefit my partner gets in an annual raise? There is no incentive for her to change things. Meanwhile we have this hanging over our heads for years like a millstone.

I am currently unemployed (not through choice – it is so hard to find any work at the mo) and the prospect of varying down the order is not palatable as it would take ages, cost a fortune, require full disclosure and she would lie to make herself look worse off and probably try and land us with her costs too. She is also very vengeful and dishonest – hence the protracted divorce and unfair maintenance allowance.

How can we get out of this stranglehold by a legally-aided, lazy, unambitious, deceitful person who wants to effectively make us suffer financially for a very long time? Even mothers on benefit are expected to get a full time job once their youngest child reaches a certain age. She sees no reason why she should do more as she expects us to both work full time to help support her. She doesn’t even support the eldest child at uni with the global maintenance paid partially for that purpose.

There are many people in our position and it is grossly unfair that the man is penalised for being both honest and responsible whilst the ex gets away with doing nothing to improve things. There is no leverage and no incentive and we are the hardworking lone voices in the wilderness. What can be done? We will be even worse off when the RPI increase hits later this year.

Please help.

JamesB on February 7, 2011 at 5:40 pm

I agree with John.

Enough Already on March 24, 2011 at 12:45 pm

hi Mariyn,

Further to my above post on 25th Jan could you please provide some advice?

I am still unemployed and it is hard to keep going with the constant rejection alongside the financial stress exacerbated by my partner’s ongoing financial obligations to his ex wife.

At present I only receice £65 per week JSA, as of May 1st I will receive nothing at all. My partner will then have to support me, our entire household outgoings (including my personal outgoings), his own obligations and a large global maintenance payment to his ex wife.

We are at our wits end.

If our only route is to vary the order then how much is it likely to cost, how can we guarantee some fairness this time around (when last time we were not really listened to or considered) and how can we stop her and her partner lying again in the proceedings to back each other up. They can afford top legal represenation funded by her boyfriend – we cannot so it is an unfair fight from the off. Can we save money by taking the case to a magistrates court or having some form of mediation to change the court order?

When looking at affordability of monthly maintenance will the courts look at monthly income or will they expect any savings to be used by us before varying down any monthly payments to her?

The thought of paying a lot of money we don’t have in order to achieve little or nothing is not appealing – neither is defaulting on court orderered payments which effectively would make my partner a criminal.

If she was a reasonable person we would write to her but all she will say is that we signed up to the original order (with a gun to our heads and the threat of paying her very large court costs).

There must be something we can do?

Please advise.

Thanks.

Marilyn Stowe on March 24, 2011 at 4:13 pm

In reply to Enough Already:-
The problem I have is insufficient information to properly advise you, so what follows is simply a guide. You need to take your own legal advice because it seems to me, on the face of it your partner may have a good arguable case for a downwards variation or even an extinguishment of his liability to his former spouse.
The new Family Procedure Rules come into force on 6th April. There will be a pre action protocol in force and the process is intended to be more streamlined, managed much more effectively and proportionately by the court with the overall aim of ‘justly dealing with the case having regard to the welfare issues involved’.
Your partner’s solicitor will ideally write the first letter, setting out your partner’s position and what he is seeking, and it is an important letter to be written with care, under the new Rules because there could be cost implications in your partner’s favour if you write correctly and set the appropriate tone.
Mediation and other forms of ADR including collaborative law, is an important part of the new process, to keep costs down and I believe the court will expect mediation to be considered at all stages in the process, including at the start.
So, I think its fair to say that this time round, it will be better than the last especially since the court must also ensure the parties are on an equal footing.
You can certainly look into the magistrates dealing with the application – I believe the order would need to be registered in the appropriate magistrates court before a variation is made, but I suspect his former wife would object. Its still worth looking into with your local magistrate’s court.
You need evidence of their cohabitation if you can get it. However, as this was raised albeit rejected last time, I would imagine a Judge hearing they still have an ongoing relationship is more likely to accept it now.
Costs might also be important. The court does have power to make costs orders where litigants act unreasonably, and you mustnt overlook this.
So on balance, your partner seem to have little choice but to proceed and I dont think you should be downbeat.
Go and take some detailed legal advice.
Regards
Marilyn

Enough Already on March 25, 2011 at 11:02 am

Thank you very much Marilyn for your timely reply.

I appreciate you cannot give detailed advice as each case is so complicated and individual. There was a fair amount of detail inmy 25th Jan post above though.

I think my partner is so scarred and battle weary from the last round (and it was very costly) that he is loathe to take further action through the court – especially as we were so let down by the judge last time. Also his ex wife is not co-habiting with this man but has had a relationship with him for nearly 8 years now. It is a long distance relationship so the judge didn’t consider it a ‘proper’ relationship.

However, we will think about your advice in light of the new rules. Is there a good online resource to investigate the new rules? Are you saying that as part of varying an existing order under the new rules that it would also involve mediation? Does it have to be heard in court with barristers or can it be done via mediation and rubber stamped by the court?

I doubt there would be an extinguishment of any aspect of maintenance to his ex wife as the children are 13, 17 & 20. the two youngest still live at home. However, the 17 yr old may be living away at uni next in the academic year (Sept 11).

Thanks again.

Marilyn Stowe on March 25, 2011 at 11:45 am

I will write a post about it. IThe Rules were only published a few months ago and since then practice directions and forms have been coming out until very recently. Its all supposed to be up and running by 6thApril but I am expecting quite a few teething problems as so many people, including all the court staff across the country have to adjust.
In our firm we have been having training, and everyone has been issued with hundreds of pages of documents which we are trying to digest. We are having another meeting to go through all the new forms next week.
Overall the way Judges’ manage cases will change for the better, and this is good as far more people are expected to be acting on their own without lawyers.
One of the points I highlighted in my reply to you above is the courts have a duty to ensure parties are on an even footing.
As I mentioned in my reply if you seriously wish to proceed given the anticipated drop in your income, and wish to consider in greater detail any sums that the boyfriend might be considered liable to pay, and a consideration of an increase in the former wife’s earned income, then take legal advice. I know this is one of the most thorny topics right now and there are strong arguments on both sides.
At the moment your partner has a liability and if he decides not to proceed, then the only option, is grit your teeth and bear it. He has a former wife and children, and he has to pay his maintenance. So accept it and if you can put it out of your mind. If you let it eat you both up, it could destroy your own relationship and if you have a good relationship worth fighting for be strong and dont let it happen.
Best Wishes,
Marilyn.

Enough Already on March 25, 2011 at 2:36 pm

Thanks Marilyn,

Sounds like it may take a while for the system to accommodate these new rule changes. I suppose the question to ask of any legal practice is whether they have fully incorporated these or had training.

With regard to our case, her income has not increased and her boyfriend does not live with her – he may well make payments to her but this is hard to prove as her legal reps won’t provide straight answers and he and she lie to cover each other (even drafting so called loan agreements). This was a thorn in the side of our original case. Our circmstances have subsequently changed considerably as we are relying on only one income into our house. My partner is supporting everyone until I find work again which is proving extremely difficult. As I said, come May my income will be £0 which is a very scary prospect – I have always contributed my share into our household until now.

I did ask previously and this is a key point in whether we would seek to vary; When looking at affordability of monthly maintenance will the courts look at monthly income or will they expect any savings to be used by us before varying down any monthly payments to her?

Also, as our situation is deemed temporary, would it be considered worth varying an order for? What would happen if I found a job and had an income again?

Sorry to ask so many questions but our situation is financially very difficult and before we spend any more money we would want to be fairly sure of a positive (non-temporary) outcome.

In your blog post about the new rules would you also be able to provide insight to those hoping to self represent throughout (or indeed, if that is possible)?

Many thanks once again. Really appreciate your help.

Lukey21 on March 25, 2011 at 8:39 pm

Enough Already,
I have every sympathy for you, your partner is being screwed indefinitely by the English courts – his mistake was getting married – many men have to pay spousal support to their ex-wives until they die.

Enough Already on March 29, 2011 at 11:01 am

Hi Marilyn

Thanks for writing about the New Rules in your blog.

I did ask previously and this is a key point in whether we would seek to vary; When looking at affordability of monthly maintenance will the courts look at monthly income or will they expect any savings to be used by us before varying down any monthly payments to her?

Also, as our situation is deemed temporary, would it be considered worth varying an order for? What would happen if I found a job and had an income again?

Sorry to ask more questions but our situation is financially very difficult and before we spend any more money we would want to be fairly sure of a positive (non-temporary) outcome.

Many thanks once again. Really appreciate your help.

Marilyn Stowe on March 29, 2011 at 11:23 am

Enough Already! As Ive made clear, I cant give specific advise, and whilst generally it is unusual for a court to require savings to be exhausted and a temporary situation to have a permanent effect on the payment of maintenance, it is necessary in giving legal advice to look closely at the specific facts of the case.The court has a wide discretion as you know and each case is different.
I repeat, your partner needs to take his own legal advice.

spousal on June 20, 2011 at 12:12 pm

Hi,

I’m writing for advice for a friend. He pays £750 child maintenance for his three children age (9, 8 & 4). He is also paying £750 Spousal. The spousal agreement is halved to £350 when the youngest turns 5. He had assumed this was because all three children would be at school and she could fine work. However, the youngest is starting full time school in September. His current take home earnings a month are £3,500. When he got divorced he gave gave his ex wife the matrimonial home which is worth £300,000. She has a mortgage of £80,000 left on the home and it was put into her name. He didn’t take a charge on the house and handed over a lump sum of £220,000 for her to put into the mortgage which at the time was very high on the property.

He is paying £120 over and above CSA calculations on the child maintenance side of the agreement. He now wants to re-assess the maintenance payments and wants the spousal maintenance to be cut to £350.00 as of this September as his youngest is starting school. He knows she gets in the region of £500.00 a month family tax credit and is working three days a week.

He lives in his partners house which is owned by her. They took out a £100,000 mortgage to have a loft extension built to accommodate his three children every other weekend and extra long weekends in the holidays. He also has the children for 2 weeks in the summer. His partner owned the property outright before he moved in with her. They took out the mortgage in joint names. On the money left per month he would not have been able to afford to buy a new place for himself. They are both finding it hard to keep up payments of the mortgage, running the car to and fro for collection of the children. His partner has two children who also live in their home. She has not been earning this year but will be earning again in September. Will her earnings be taken into consideration or would the courts look at my friends outgoings and the time he spends with his children when considering an adjustment in the spousal agreement. It seems vey unfair that he is paying out so much when she will be able to work full time in September. The only has this affected his finances, it’s affected his partners as she obviously can no longer claim family tax credit and his full earnings are taken into consideration in terms of her own children. This year she can not claim EMI for her daughter as they don’t take into consideration that half of his earnings actually do not go into their home but goes on maintenance payments. The system seems very unfair on both my friend and his new partner. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I see him falling down with the pressure of working long hours to make the wage he does to support his ex wife’s lifestyle, and the amount of time he has the children and is commuting long distances to see them.

Marilyn Stowe on June 20, 2011 at 10:17 pm

Thanks for contacting me. Your friend needs to take legal advice from a lawyer who has all the facts and documents to hand and who can then give your friend informed advice. It’s not wise for me to advise third hand on the basis of some but not all the required info.
Marilyn.

Al on December 16, 2011 at 3:56 pm

Hi there, reading through the comments of the many that have been sentenced (like me) with a lifetime maintenance order. It is clear that English law is so unreasonable to the point where it removes all ambition from those who have contributed to the countries growth and employment. I am self employed, I employ 12 people. My maintenance order is £ 60K cleared funds to a woman who cohabits, has received £ 700K in assets and the privilege of dictating when and how long I can see the children. My children are still young, 4, 6, 11 and 12. I understand that it is a full time job to bring up children and do not wish to relinquish my responsibilities. But the value of the maintenance order is so high, that I face certain ruin and those who I employ face the same dire prospects because of this unreasonable order. The lawyers agreed this value based on earning three years ago when the economy was blooming. Having looked at my company accounts this year, it has only made a profit of £ 65K (before tax), yet I have to pay this enormous sum. This sentence is eroding my liquid cash and soon tangible assets. The ex wife has received all the copper bottomed assets and I am left with all the liability and responsibility. I am desperately looking for help. My lawyer seems to think that I have to wait another six months, but I fear that my business will become bankrupt as this is were I need to draw this cash from, not mentioning the dividend tax that I will be lumbered with soon. Please help someone????

Marilyn Stowe on December 16, 2011 at 7:07 pm

Al:- here are a few thoughts.
1. How old is this order?
2. How is it split between your former wife and the children?
3. What would you say is a fair assessment of your own net income, not just what you choose to draw?
4. Do you live with anyone else and does that person earn an income and if so how much?
5. Does your former wife have any other source of income and if so how much is it net of tax?
6. What do you think are your former wife’s and the children’s reasonable income needs and what are yours?
7. Why did you transfer to your wife the “copper bottomed assets?” what were you left with and how much are they worth?
Let me know the above and I will let you have my opinion.
Regards
Marilyn

Gary Fisher on January 2, 2012 at 1:20 pm

My Ex Wife is due to re-marry in Feb 2012 and they have been living together aproximately 8 months am i still liable for child maintanence for my two children aged 13 and 17

Marilyn Stowe on January 2, 2012 at 2:12 pm

Gary
Spousal maintenance only ceases on remarriage. Child support continues until each child leaves school or potentially until they have finished tertiary education.

Emma Capes on January 11, 2012 at 7:06 pm

Hi
I’ve recently started co-habiting with my boyfriend who pays spousal and child maintenance to his ex and 3 children. He is currently in negotiations with his ex through their lawyers over reducing his maintenance based upon new legal advice he has been overpaying given his earnings have decreased since the original court order. She has approximately £700K in capital in the family home. She has no declared income albeit we have moutning proof that she is working as a freelance therapist. He is a high income earner but has no capital and approximately £75,000 debt due to maintaining the existing levels of maintenance and increased school fees. The current levels of maintenance and school fees leaves with him 30% of his net salary.
I was interested in the flip side of the discussions on this blog, can the fact that he is co-habiting with me go against him and be used by his ex to maintain her current payments? I am mid-earning solvent professional.
Any advice appreciated.