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	<title>Comments on: Why Baroness Deech is wrong – by guest blogger Jonathan James</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/</link>
	<description>Where Family Law Meets Family Life</description>
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		<title>By: Marilyn Stowe</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-398</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilyn Stowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-398</guid>
		<description>The best way for me to deal with the issues you raise are in further posts. I have one almost ready to post about marriage - is it too easy to marry- and the second will be about divorce reform. I will welcome your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best way for me to deal with the issues you raise are in further posts. I have one almost ready to post about marriage &#8211; is it too easy to marry- and the second will be about divorce reform. I will welcome your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-397</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-397</guid>
		<description>Marilyn,  I think we can agree that very often journalists pick out headlines and &quot;stories&quot; and do not do justice to the underlying truth of what they are reporting.  This is perhaps in the nature of &quot;news&quot;.  I acknowledge your long experience and the perspective which this brings.  As a practising solicitor is your duty to advise your clients on the law as it is and to seek the best outcomes for them based on that law.  However, I do not think that this precludes considering whether the relevant law might be flawed and could be improved.

I note that you did not answer the simple question as to whether you had read Baroness Deech&#039;s paper?  One of the points made was that divorces involve considerable emotional, financial and social costs.  You are absolutely right to refer to the damage which is done if a broken marriage is not ended, especially potentially to children.  To recast the &quot;moral issue&quot; in utilitarian terms, the current system does not weigh the relative harm of divorce or &quot;no divorce&quot;.  It places no substantial barrier in the way of a misconceived desire for divorce, and gives little weight to the interests of the spouse who accepted a commitment which is now being broken.

In summary, although in some cases divorce prevents probable further damage to the parties, and, importantly, their children, which would be caused if they stayed together, this does not mean that in other cases divorce is not the more damaging option - but there is little that can be done to resist it, even if this is the case.

A decision to issue divorce proceedings is, I suspect, very often influenced more by emotion than a calm and rational analysis and consideration of the consequences, practical, financial or otherwise.  As a matter of policy, surely consideration of steps, such as those proposed by Baroness Deech, to improve the decisions made in such circumstances is to be welcomed given the possible gravity of their ramifications?

james c,

I agree.  But whilst it is impossible for those vows to be enforced, that does not mean that the Court should allow them to be disregarded with impunity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marilyn,  I think we can agree that very often journalists pick out headlines and &#8220;stories&#8221; and do not do justice to the underlying truth of what they are reporting.  This is perhaps in the nature of &#8220;news&#8221;.  I acknowledge your long experience and the perspective which this brings.  As a practising solicitor is your duty to advise your clients on the law as it is and to seek the best outcomes for them based on that law.  However, I do not think that this precludes considering whether the relevant law might be flawed and could be improved.</p>
<p>I note that you did not answer the simple question as to whether you had read Baroness Deech&#8217;s paper?  One of the points made was that divorces involve considerable emotional, financial and social costs.  You are absolutely right to refer to the damage which is done if a broken marriage is not ended, especially potentially to children.  To recast the &#8220;moral issue&#8221; in utilitarian terms, the current system does not weigh the relative harm of divorce or &#8220;no divorce&#8221;.  It places no substantial barrier in the way of a misconceived desire for divorce, and gives little weight to the interests of the spouse who accepted a commitment which is now being broken.</p>
<p>In summary, although in some cases divorce prevents probable further damage to the parties, and, importantly, their children, which would be caused if they stayed together, this does not mean that in other cases divorce is not the more damaging option &#8211; but there is little that can be done to resist it, even if this is the case.</p>
<p>A decision to issue divorce proceedings is, I suspect, very often influenced more by emotion than a calm and rational analysis and consideration of the consequences, practical, financial or otherwise.  As a matter of policy, surely consideration of steps, such as those proposed by Baroness Deech, to improve the decisions made in such circumstances is to be welcomed given the possible gravity of their ramifications?</p>
<p>james c,</p>
<p>I agree.  But whilst it is impossible for those vows to be enforced, that does not mean that the Court should allow them to be disregarded with impunity.</p>
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		<title>By: james c</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-396</link>
		<dc:creator>james c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-396</guid>
		<description>Adrian,

The original poster&#039;s quote was absurd-the Court does not enforce marriage vows. I am sure that he knows his audience, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrian,</p>
<p>The original poster&#8217;s quote was absurd-the Court does not enforce marriage vows. I am sure that he knows his audience, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilyn Stowe</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-395</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilyn Stowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-395</guid>
		<description>Adrian I am a practising solicitor not an academic and my comments are influenced by my career experience. I have been involved with thousands of real life divorce cases for going on nearly 30 years and I continue my involvement full time. Whether you accept this or not, I have never been instructed by a client who has not agonised on the decision to end their marriage, and in so instructing also believes that there is no viable alternative for themselves or their children. If they did, they would not be instructing me.
You raise the question of morality. I do not believe it is “morally right” to keep parties and their children trapped in a broken marriage for reasons of financial expediency. Children of marriages where warring parents stay together often for financial reasons, may also be brutally damaged too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrian I am a practising solicitor not an academic and my comments are influenced by my career experience. I have been involved with thousands of real life divorce cases for going on nearly 30 years and I continue my involvement full time. Whether you accept this or not, I have never been instructed by a client who has not agonised on the decision to end their marriage, and in so instructing also believes that there is no viable alternative for themselves or their children. If they did, they would not be instructing me.<br />
You raise the question of morality. I do not believe it is “morally right” to keep parties and their children trapped in a broken marriage for reasons of financial expediency. Children of marriages where warring parents stay together often for financial reasons, may also be brutally damaged too.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-394</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-394</guid>
		<description>Marilyn Stowe&#039;s opening remark is somewhat ironic given that her colleague, Jonathan James&#039;s blog is apparently based purely on the press coverage, rather than the full paper as presented by Baroness Deech, which I have taken the time to read in its entirety.   I would suggest they both take time to read the full paper before commenting any further.

James C&#039;s comment is pithy and no doubt reflects the bewilderment which many men feel when they encounter the &quot;Alice in Wonderland&quot; world of divorce law.  My impression is that we tend to hear more about men who do not act &quot;reasonably&quot;, whatever that actually means, than we do about men who do a pretty decent job of fulfilling their commitments to their wives and children come what may, but receive little acknowledgement of what they do, and then find to their consternation that their commitment is not matched by that of their wives, who find it all too easy to demand a divorce without having any sensible regard for the practical consequences either financially, or, most importantly for children.

Baroness Deech&#039;s paper is not about &quot;high value&quot; divorces.  It is about the issues which arise in &quot;ordinary&quot; divorces and an attempt to analyse the causes and suggest some measures which might provide better solutions.  There is, I think, a moral message too: I would summarise it as a need for the law to better recognise a duty falling on spouses and parents to take reponsibility for their actions, especially where not doing so imposes a cost on their children, each other, and the taxpayer.  This is not to say that every marriage must be maintained at all costs, but merely that it can be too easy to end a marriage without good reasons for doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marilyn Stowe&#8217;s opening remark is somewhat ironic given that her colleague, Jonathan James&#8217;s blog is apparently based purely on the press coverage, rather than the full paper as presented by Baroness Deech, which I have taken the time to read in its entirety.   I would suggest they both take time to read the full paper before commenting any further.</p>
<p>James C&#8217;s comment is pithy and no doubt reflects the bewilderment which many men feel when they encounter the &#8220;Alice in Wonderland&#8221; world of divorce law.  My impression is that we tend to hear more about men who do not act &#8220;reasonably&#8221;, whatever that actually means, than we do about men who do a pretty decent job of fulfilling their commitments to their wives and children come what may, but receive little acknowledgement of what they do, and then find to their consternation that their commitment is not matched by that of their wives, who find it all too easy to demand a divorce without having any sensible regard for the practical consequences either financially, or, most importantly for children.</p>
<p>Baroness Deech&#8217;s paper is not about &#8220;high value&#8221; divorces.  It is about the issues which arise in &#8220;ordinary&#8221; divorces and an attempt to analyse the causes and suggest some measures which might provide better solutions.  There is, I think, a moral message too: I would summarise it as a need for the law to better recognise a duty falling on spouses and parents to take reponsibility for their actions, especially where not doing so imposes a cost on their children, each other, and the taxpayer.  This is not to say that every marriage must be maintained at all costs, but merely that it can be too easy to end a marriage without good reasons for doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilyn Stowe</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilyn Stowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-393</guid>
		<description>What worries me is the power of the media in potentially influencing changes in the law when it is pretty clear they dont fully understand what the law is and what the likely impact of future change might bring. Thus we have the phrase &quot;London is the divorce capital of the world&quot;
In fact, we have current law which allows the court to make an order to fairly fit the circumstances of each and every case as they dont blindly have to follow a set formula.
I am concerned that particularly because of media pressure, following one or two high profile and wholly unrepresentative cases, discretion to do justice between the parties may be abolished in favour of a prescribed formula. If it is, it will mean a great deal more unfairness particularly for the less well off. And conversely non-working spouses of the very wealthy who have earned a great deal of money during the marriage, will probably do better as well.
The retention of discretion and the duty to apply all the factors contained in s25MCA 1973 in order to achieve a fair settlement, give this country a cutting edge over those legal systems who ritually apply formulaic law no matter the outcome on the parties, and it seems wholly wrong to me that in the interests of media pressure and &quot;comity&quot; our courts are also having to deal with media pressure that would throw the baby out with the bath water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What worries me is the power of the media in potentially influencing changes in the law when it is pretty clear they dont fully understand what the law is and what the likely impact of future change might bring. Thus we have the phrase &#8220;London is the divorce capital of the world&#8221;<br />
In fact, we have current law which allows the court to make an order to fairly fit the circumstances of each and every case as they dont blindly have to follow a set formula.<br />
I am concerned that particularly because of media pressure, following one or two high profile and wholly unrepresentative cases, discretion to do justice between the parties may be abolished in favour of a prescribed formula. If it is, it will mean a great deal more unfairness particularly for the less well off. And conversely non-working spouses of the very wealthy who have earned a great deal of money during the marriage, will probably do better as well.<br />
The retention of discretion and the duty to apply all the factors contained in s25MCA 1973 in order to achieve a fair settlement, give this country a cutting edge over those legal systems who ritually apply formulaic law no matter the outcome on the parties, and it seems wholly wrong to me that in the interests of media pressure and &#8220;comity&#8221; our courts are also having to deal with media pressure that would throw the baby out with the bath water.</p>
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		<title>By: james c</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-392</link>
		<dc:creator>james c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-392</guid>
		<description>&#039;If a man chooses to promise to his life partner a full commitment of sharing everything, how then can he complain when a Court expects him to deliver on it?&#039;

Probably because the Court is not meant to assign blame for the divorce and does not expect the woman to deliver on her promises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;If a man chooses to promise to his life partner a full commitment of sharing everything, how then can he complain when a Court expects him to deliver on it?&#8217;</p>
<p>Probably because the Court is not meant to assign blame for the divorce and does not expect the woman to deliver on her promises.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2009/09/16/why-baroness-deech-is-wrong-%e2%80%93-by-guest-blogger-jonathan-james/#comment-391</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/?p=1198#comment-391</guid>
		<description>Actually, you sum up the general unfairness of the English system in ordinary cases with this remark:

&quot;The husband is not going to see any money until the children leave home, as often as not; the wife is going to be living for years to come in the knowledge that one day the husband will have to receive some money because there is no way she can afford to buy him out at this stage.  In other words, a problem is saved up for the future.  In the meantime, the husband pays child maintenance only because that is all he can realistically afford.&quot;

I.e.  The husband is left homeless and paying child maintenance (with no account taken of the former wife&#039;s income level for CSA child maintenance) and has to provide himeself with a home!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you sum up the general unfairness of the English system in ordinary cases with this remark:</p>
<p>&#8220;The husband is not going to see any money until the children leave home, as often as not; the wife is going to be living for years to come in the knowledge that one day the husband will have to receive some money because there is no way she can afford to buy him out at this stage.  In other words, a problem is saved up for the future.  In the meantime, the husband pays child maintenance only because that is all he can realistically afford.&#8221;</p>
<p>I.e.  The husband is left homeless and paying child maintenance (with no account taken of the former wife&#8217;s income level for CSA child maintenance) and has to provide himeself with a home!</p>
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